Time to bring in at least 150K new users to QB64

[doppler]

So how do we get 150,000 new QB64 users.  With sales of 30 Million unit's in 2019, who knows where that number is today with covid locking people at home.  And any available unit being scalped at ridiculous prices.  Or any online listing announcing stock all gone within 15 minutes.  The little sought after PC is the Raspberry PI.  If we can get 0.5% of the user base to install it's 150K new users.

So what will it take to get QB64 listed in the Raspberry Debian Repository ?  There are many locations the where repositories are holding code.  I could be wrong but all we need is one developer to compile and post a image of QB64 and support files.  I now the install script exists to compile QB64 but it's not "ALL" new user friendly.  I think we need to "APP" QB64 into a repository package.

So can we make this happen ?  I would love to help but I am too newbie even after a couple of years using Linux to know how to do this.

Thanks
BTW, With all the competition QB64 has under windows.  Nobody has listed there basic in the repository.  We could be a first.
 

[STxAxTIC]

The question of "how to expand QB64's userbase by getting it to run on XYZ hardware" is a completely expired question. Forget it.

The real way to grow QB64 as a language is to return to its *intended* roots, which is to provide an accessible platform for anyone, at any level, to write code and get it to run. The true BASIC way. Listen boys, while QB64 as a *language* does this very thing, QB64.exe does not. QB64.exe, even with its GL backbone, is still a combustion horse trying to keep pace in an age of electric cars and rockets. The answer to the conundrum on hand is to somehow keep the *spirit* of QB64 whilst shedding the husk of its pasta code.

Enter dbox. Our Galleon 2.0. His qbjs project is SO good, came from such a new direction, that people don't even realize the answer has already arrived. I don't care if QB64.exe has more features, or has a dubugger, all of that is nil. What dbox has is a thing that runs QB64 code on any device (coming soon, just a matter of interface). This is it. Repent repent repent, for the lord has arrived early. Am I getting through to everyone?

The job now is to (i) let dbox round off the corners while receiving useful feedback from everyone, (ii) start to mass old-but-gold classics that can be showcased in qbjs, (iii) bulldog the hell out of this thing on the Internet. Make it known that BASIC really is back *in spirit*. It's on every machine that has a browser. It's in your face like it used to be. Microsoft blew it, every OS blew it, here now is your BASIC, just paste your code and go (just about).

Do that, and we grow. I'm sure of it.

[david_uwi]

I have probably said this before (many times) very few younger people code. All the stuff they need has been written for them and they just download it (yes I'm looking at you Arduino and RPI). When I was a young lad many decades ago everybody who was studying science had a go at writing their own programs.
I saved a great amount of time in my work by writing dedicated programs particularly for data entry (with checking) - much easier and quicker than excel with *no mistakes*.

[doppler]

The thing about Raspberries it started out to encourage programming and experimentation with younger crowd.  As the PI got more features and power the industrial sector started to replace the PC-104's. With PI's and special hardware using the compute modules.  Apps written for industrial control where mostly done in "C".  Porting became an easy task, and PI's are replacing the aging PC-104's.  For the price of one PC-104 board stack, several PI's can be had.

[George McGinn]

@doppler  - The problem with getting QB64 into the Raspberry Debian repositories is that not all the code compiled by QB64 on the PI works.

There is an issue with SIG BUS address errors in some programs. Also, QB64 only works in the 32bit OS. Does not work in the 64bit OS (On the PI4/PI400's).

I have posts elsewhere (see https://qb64forum.alephc.xyz/index.php?topic=4617.msg141500#msg141500) that partly explains all the issues in running QB64 on a PI.

If you want, I can send you code that fails due to misaligned addresses, if you'd like.

Unless the Raspberry PI Foundation applies the hardware fix that was done to the x86 chips (I don't know if Apple's M1 ARM was fixed), then QB64, unless someone goes into the C++ code and corrects all the misaligned fields (which is impractical), will not work all the time.

Right now, InForm doesn't compile due to this very error. It would be nice to have QB64 working on the PI, but until I get a M1 ARM processor to test it out, in 5 years when the ARM processor becomes standard with new computers, QB64 may have to be changed so it can run on these CPU's

So how do we get 150,000 new QB64 users.  With sales of 30 Million unit's in 2019, who knows where that number is today with covid locking people at home.  And any available unit being scalped at ridiculous prices.  Or any online listing announcing stock all gone within 15 minutes.  The little sought after PC is the Raspberry PI.  If we can get 0.5% of the user base to install it's 150K new users.

So what will it take to get QB64 listed in the Raspberry Debian Repository ?  There are many locations the where repositories are holding code.  I could be wrong but all we need is one developer to compile and post a image of QB64 and support files.  I now the install script exists to compile QB64 but it's not "ALL" new user friendly.  I think we need to "APP" QB64 into a repository package.

So can we make this happen ?  I would love to help but I am too newbie even after a couple of years using Linux to know how to do this.

Thanks
BTW, With all the competition QB64 has under windows.  Nobody has listed there basic in the repository.  We could be a first.
 

[Pete]

I'd like to help but I'm pretty tied up trying to keep 3 at The QBasic Forum!

Pete

[doppler]

The problem with getting QB64 into the Raspberry Debian repositories is that not all the code compiled by QB64 on the PI works.

That on line rather says it all.  (Not ready for prime time.)

QB64 is so much more closer in usage to qb45 that everybody knows from way back when.  All other flavors of basic in the windows environment require esoteric knowledge of how to compile or how basic works.  Not for the beginners.  I knew INFORM did not compile on the PI.  Because right off the bat, a special call to a windows function occurs.  Rendering PI compile very moot.  I was not aware of code alignment problems with PI compiled QB64.  I have experienced segment faults with Linux.  They can be a very painful process to correct sometimes.

I was hoping for a quick way to get a slice of the Raspberry PI crowd.  I know for a fact Industry (especially process and control) are moving away from PC-104 (1k+) costs.  To very cheap PI's.  Even the compute modules which focus on professional crowds are a good solution.

[_vince]

in 5 years when the ARM processor becomes standard with new computers

please elaborate

[wiggins]

So how do we get 150,000 new QB64 users.  With sales of 30 Million unit's in 2019, who knows where that number is today with covid locking people at home.  And any available unit being scalped at ridiculous prices.  Or any online listing announcing stock all gone within 15 minutes.  The little sought after PC is the Raspberry PI.  If we can get 0.5% of the user base to install it's 150K new users.

So what will it take to get QB64 listed in the Raspberry Debian Repository ?  There are many locations the where repositories are holding code.  I could be wrong but all we need is one developer to compile and post a image of QB64 and support files.  I now the install script exists to compile QB64 but it's not "ALL" new user friendly.  I think we need to "APP" QB64 into a repository package.

So can we make this happen ?  I would love to help but I am too newbie even after a couple of years using Linux to know how to do this.

Thanks
BTW, With all the competition QB64 has under windows.  Nobody has listed there basic in the repository.  We could be a first.
 

So how do we get 150,000 new QB64 users.  With sales of 30 Million unit's in 2019, who knows where that number is today with covid locking people at home.  And any available unit being scalped at ridiculous prices.  Or any online listing announcing stock all gone within 15 minutes.  The little sought after PC is the Raspberry PI.  If we can get 0.5% of the user base to install it's 150K new users.

So what will it take to get QB64 listed in the Raspberry Debian Repository ?  There are many locations the where repositories are holding code.  I could be wrong but all we need is one developer to compile and post a image of QB64 and support files.  I now the install script exists to compile QB64 but it's not "ALL" new user friendly.  I think we need to "APP" QB64 into a repository package.

So can we make this happen ?  I would love to help but I am too newbie even after a couple of years using Linux to know how to do this.

Thanks
BTW, With all the competition QB64 has under windows.  Nobody has listed there basic in the repository.  We could be a first.
 

Is this a serious question?  If so, you need people with the PI devices who also support QB64.  PI issues would need to be resolved and the setup process would need to be documented.  Then you would need people who understand the PI implementation who are willing to answer questions.  I don't even know if there is a roadmap for QB64, let alone money to support PI.   

The question of "how to expand QB64's userbase by getting it to run on XYZ hardware" is a completely expired question. Forget it.

The real way to grow QB64 as a language is to return to its *intended* roots, which is to provide an accessible platform for anyone, at any level, to write code and get it to run. The true BASIC way. Listen boys, while QB64 as a *language* does this very thing, QB64.exe does not. QB64.exe, even with its GL backbone, is still a combustion horse trying to keep pace in an age of electric cars and rockets. The answer to the conundrum on hand is to somehow keep the *spirit* of QB64 whilst shedding the husk of its pasta code.

Enter dbox. Our Galleon 2.0. His qbjs project is SO good, came from such a new direction, that people don't even realize the answer has already arrived. I don't care if QB64.exe has more features, or has a dubugger, all of that is nil. What dbox has is a thing that runs QB64 code on any device (coming soon, just a matter of interface). This is it. Repent repent repent, for the lord has arrived early. Am I getting through to everyone?

The job now is to (i) let dbox round off the corners while receiving useful feedback from everyone, (ii) start to mass old-but-gold classics that can be showcased in qbjs, (iii) bulldog the hell out of this thing on the Internet. Make it known that BASIC really is back *in spirit*. It's on every machine that has a browser. It's in your face like it used to be. Microsoft blew it, every OS blew it, here now is your BASIC, just paste your code and go (just about).

Do that, and we grow. I'm sure of it.

The question of "how to expand QB64's userbase by getting it to run on XYZ hardware" is a completely expired question. Forget it.

The real way to grow QB64 as a language is to return to its *intended* roots, which is to provide an accessible platform for anyone, at any level, to write code and get it to run. The true BASIC way. Listen boys, while QB64 as a *language* does this very thing, QB64.exe does not. QB64.exe, even with its GL backbone, is still a combustion horse trying to keep pace in an age of electric cars and rockets. The answer to the conundrum on hand is to somehow keep the *spirit* of QB64 whilst shedding the husk of its pasta code.

Enter dbox. Our Galleon 2.0. His qbjs project is SO good, came from such a new direction, that people don't even realize the answer has already arrived. I don't care if QB64.exe has more features, or has a dubugger, all of that is nil. What dbox has is a thing that runs QB64 code on any device (coming soon, just a matter of interface). This is it. Repent repent repent, for the lord has arrived early. Am I getting through to everyone?

The job now is to (i) let dbox round off the corners while receiving useful feedback from everyone, (ii) start to mass old-but-gold classics that can be showcased in qbjs, (iii) bulldog the hell out of this thing on the Internet. Make it known that BASIC really is back *in spirit*. It's on every machine that has a browser. It's in your face like it used to be. Microsoft blew it, every OS blew it, here now is your BASIC, just paste your code and go (just about).

Do that, and we grow. I'm sure of it.

I think your response pretty accurate. In order to add new users, the support team has to be willing own and address QB64 / PI problems and be super helpful to people who ask for help.  I don't see that happening.

Galleon did an amazing job with QB64 and the QB64 team has also done a good job keeping QB64 going. I am not aware of any roadmap for QB64.  I get the impression that there is not much of an appetite to take on major changes to the QB64 engine anyway.   It would be easier to re-platform if the QB64 engine didn't compile tons of un-executed code.   Without support for ARM, QB64 is less useful to me, but I am only one person.   Qb64 is fine for the windows environment.  Qb64 works on windows, it's reliable and it's free.  It's basic that you know which works on new versions of windows. 
 

The question of "how to expand QB64's userbase by getting it to run on XYZ hardware" is a completely expired question. Forget it.

The real way to grow QB64 as a language is to return to its *intended* roots, which is to provide an accessible platform for anyone, at any level, to write code and get it to run. The true BASIC way. Listen boys, while QB64 as a *language* does this very thing, QB64.exe does not. QB64.exe, even with its GL backbone, is still a combustion horse trying to keep pace in an age of electric cars and rockets. The answer to the conundrum on hand is to somehow keep the *spirit* of QB64 whilst shedding the husk of its pasta code.

Enter dbox. Our Galleon 2.0. His qbjs project is SO good, came from such a new direction, that people don't even realize the answer has already arrived. I don't care if QB64.exe has more features, or has a dubugger, all of that is nil. What dbox has is a thing that runs QB64 code on any device (coming soon, just a matter of interface). This is it. Repent repent repent, for the lord has arrived early. Am I getting through to everyone?

The job now is to (i) let dbox round off the corners while receiving useful feedback from everyone, (ii) start to mass old-but-gold classics that can be showcased in qbjs, (iii) bulldog the hell out of this thing on the Internet. Make it known that BASIC really is back *in spirit*. It's on every machine that has a browser. It's in your face like it used to be. Microsoft blew it, every OS blew it, here now is your BASIC, just paste your code and go (just about).

Do that, and we grow. I'm sure of it.

I think your response pretty accurate. In order to add new users, the support team has to be willing own and address QB64 / PI problems and be super helpful to people who ask for help.  I don't see that happening.

Galleon did an amazing job with QB64 and the QB64 team has also done a good job keeping QB64 going. I am not aware of any roadmap for QB64.  I get the impression that there is not much of an appetite to take on major changes to the QB64 engine anyway.   It would be easier to re-platform if the QB64 engine didn't compile tons of un-executed code.   Without support for ARM, QB64 is less useful to me, but I am only one person.   Qb64 is fine for the windows environment.  Qb64 works on windows, it's reliable and it's free.  It's basic that you know which works on new versions of windows. 
 

[George McGinn]

@vince

With Apple rolling out their M1 ARM processor last year for Macbook Pro laptops (was a limited product release as a test), Intel started working on their ARM processor, and in October of last year, Microsoft and AMD announced a joint venture to also develop an ARM processor.

I'll try to find the press release on that, but if I recall correctly, Microsoft/AMD plans to replace their entire x86 line-up with their ARM processor. Which means Windows will become a ARM OS! (Maybe pure speculation on my part, but Microsoft's history with their OS deployment bears this out).

It took about 5 years for Apple to get their M1 processor to the market, and the projections from Intel and MS/AMD plan a quicker rollout, I'd say in 5 years (about right for technology advances on this magnitude) we will have many more computers, and most all new ones, using the ARM processor.

please elaborate

[George McGinn]

@doppler

I don't do Windows programming, but can you tell me where this special call to a Windows function occurs? It should be wrapped in a $IF compiler directive statement, thus preventing it from even being considered by the compiler. I can see if there is a work-a-round for it.

Thanks

...  I knew INFORM did not compile on the PI.  Because right off the bat, a special call to a windows function occurs.  Rendering PI compile very moot. ...

[George McGinn]

@doppler

Try running the program (attached in compressed file) and you should get the same SIG BUS errors (which are misaligned addresses, which I got from running many gdb sessions).

Some racing conditions also exists, and you'll see I've added _DELAY statements as I chased them throughout the code, but it stopped working at a point with the other error above.

  [ You are not allowed to view this attachment ]  

[madscijr]

I don't know about increasing the QB64 user base, but if QB64 could ever be used to program the Pi or Arduino, then the user base for those platforms would be increased by at least 1 :-)

From what everyone is saying, you would need someone who knows C++, and a deep understanding of the target OS or platform, and has a lot of free time.

My best advice would be to appeal to tech students and/or retirees who might find this a worthwhile project!

Good Luck!

[Pete]

I did my part by keeping The QBasic Forum open. I managed to drive 7 new users to QB64. I got paid a whopping 90-cents in Tapatalk points, too. Whatever good that does. Maybe I can buy a Smiley! :D

Pete

[LM]

Not sure I am using the right terminology but here are my two cents: The warning that comes up when QB64 is launched (the one about eventually being flagged as a false positive by anti-virus) concerns me. I sometimes worry that QB64 will be blocked by a zealous administrator or security policy.  Could a small step toward increasing the user base be to have the program certified or signed (terminology?) in such a way that this concern is alleviated?  Perhaps this is easier said than done, but maybe the new CEO knows how to deal with this?

LM