Author Topic: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"  (Read 5812 times)

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Offline Petr

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Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2019, 04:04:16 pm »
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  • Again, one that depreciates us?

    FellippeHeitor

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #2 on: June 23, 2019, 05:08:54 pm »
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  • I think it all depends on how you look at it. I focused on the positive words, which is why I decided to share it in the first place.

    Quote
    The one good thing from all this:

    Quote
    An innovative project called QB64 has created a modern QuickBASIC replica. It runs on Windows, MacOS, and Linux, with no emulator required.

    Quote
    This is a pretty credible BASIC environment.

    Quote
    There's a ton of sample code in program/samples, including a lot of 3D stuff.

    Quote
    Pro:

    Structured BASIC, if you want it.
    You can just recompile on every platform.

    I guess that makes me a “glass is half full” person.
    « Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 05:12:13 pm by FellippeHeitor »

    Offline TempodiBasic

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #3 on: June 23, 2019, 06:45:20 pm »
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  • HI
    Quote
    Pro:

    Structured BASIC, if you want it.
    You can just recompile on every platform.
    Con:

    No interactive REPL (that was one of the few things classic line-oriented BASIC, or hybrids like ST BASIC, had going for them).
    Slow compile.
    Ugly editor, though probably playing with fonts and colors would improve this.
    You'll always be better off just giving a newbie Python, but some people may have old code or nostalgia.

    IMHO the glass is half full... but
    in Pro he misses 
    1.the  structure empowerment  with OpenGl
    2. and the new _Keywords
    3. the open to external Library in DLL format
    4. Inform RAD tool
    5.vWatch Debugging tool


    in Con
    I stress Ugly editor. Why?
    Do you like the vintage IDE on your desktop?
    I know that the goal of Galleon was to make a windowed version of QBasic. And that goal is achieved so many times ago with this IDE that is in developing and growing in the time.
    Is it possible that it appears cool to a new programmer? And to a young programmer?

    So I can affirm that as in the developing of QB64 Galleon  had taken different decisions about how to improve old QBasic to let it working better with new files ( for example: image and sound files) , or for managing mouse and other input dispositives, so together the old QBasic Keywords we can use the empowered _QB64Keywords! ( Some old keywords are not implemented but emulated to make safe and secure the programming in modern OSes) as He can decide to give an alternative for user to use a modern IDE (He should decide if one own QB64 Graphic IDE or like Dav's IDE or an integrated editor for example Notepad++) or the classical IDE.
    For my personal use it is good so as is, but I'm an hobby programmer with old experience with QBasic and no commercial activities. So my goal is to play with BASIC and QB64 performs well this for me, but I have seen how can be strong to write BASIC with the right library to manage complex issue and make strong effective programs. So now is the goal of QB64  a vintage club of nostalgic programmers that knew QBasic or to be the new free BASIC compiler for programmers?
     The young eyes of new programmers see different from my ones.

    If I see for the first time the QB64IDE resembling old QBasic, I should think to words like nostalgia, old times, so time ago, but if I compile a simple code it runs so fast that I need to slow it.

    Thanks Fellippe to launch the rock in the water, so the waves touche my brain.

    Good Coding
    « Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 06:53:45 pm by TempodiBasic »
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    Offline Cobalt

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #4 on: June 23, 2019, 11:32:50 pm »
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  • what does he mean by 'Slow Compile' ?
    and 'ugly editor'? looks as good as the old QB45 IDE.
    Granted after becoming radioactive I only have a half-life!

    Offline Ashish

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 02:43:37 am »
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  • This man has not mentioned much advantages of QB64 as compared to cons.

    Quote
    It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration
    Is it true? I strongly disagree.

    Quote
    Ugly editor, though probably playing with fonts and colors would improve this.
    Why not use Rho's Notepad++ Patch-up/DavIDE if he is not feeling comfortable with IDE?

    Quote
    Slow compile.
    Really? For me, it takes about 10-20sec for the first compilation after downloading QB64 & after that it compiles the code in 3-6sec
    if (Me.success) {Me.improve()} else {Me.tryAgain()}


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    Offline Cobalt

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 11:47:11 am »
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  • Yeah, my compiles are pretty darn quick. 2 -4 secs most the time. Longest I've ever waited was about a 1 min and that was recompiling the QB64 IDE.
    And the 'Brain damage' quote is from a guy that has been dead 17 years. So who knows when he made that remark!
    Granted after becoming radioactive I only have a half-life!

    Offline Bert22306

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 02:58:43 pm »
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  • Yeah, my compiles are pretty darn quick. 2 -4 secs most the time. Longest I've ever waited was about a 1 min and that was recompiling the QB64 IDE.
    And the 'Brain damage' quote is from a guy that has been dead 17 years. So who knows when he made that remark!

    Yes, the "brain damage" and other such complaints, best I can tell, may have to do with the earliest examples of Basic. Years ago, I used one dialect that had draconian restrictions of variable names, such as one letter and one number only, or required line numbers, limitations on IF statements, or other such. Maybe the programmer was more constrained to use GOTO statements, back then. But none of that applies to QuickBasic or certainly QB64.

    For me, compilation time is only longish when I recompile qb64.exe. And even that is not excessive.

    I've seen comparisons of QuickBasic and Python, comparing them with more obtuse languages such as C (which uses symbols such as brackets instead of clearer words). Python has the strange limitation where indentation really matters, as opposed to being just a nice little optional thing, for clarity to the human being looking at the code.

    Anyway, my observation has been, I can hand my QB64 code to any "real programmer," and they always know exactly what the code is intended to do. And they make it work, in real world systems.

    Offline Qwerkey

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 07:45:51 am »
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  • Again, one that depreciates us?
    I have previously seen the verb "depreciates" used at this site transitively, and I thought that this was incorrect English.  I thought that "depreciate" was an intransitive verb only, with the use as in "the value of this currency is depreciating".  But my Chambers 20th-Century Dictionary gives it as a transitive verb as well, meaning "to lower the worth of" / "to disparage", as used here.  Thank you, Petr, and thank you QB64: always an education!

    Offline MWheatley

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 06:33:57 pm »
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  • As a working journalist, I found it quite positive and fairly balanced.

    The QB45 IDE and its QB64 reincarnation are NOT -- say -- Visual Studio or similar.

    If that's what you're expecting, then disappointment surely beckons.

    Malcolm

    Offline TempodiBasic

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 06:40:10 pm »
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  • I find this article... http://www.nicolasbize.com/blog/30-years-later-qbasic-is-still-the-best/
    what would be happened if the author had had QB64?
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    Offline TempodiBasic

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 07:18:40 pm »
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  • @MWheatley
    Quote
    The QB45 IDE and its QB64 reincarnation are NOT -- say -- Visual Studio or similar
    that is the point about I'm trying to talk here https://www.qb64.org/forum/index.php?topic=1454.msg106511#msg106511

    QB64 is not a reincarnation of QB45 and it is not a RAD development Studio like Visual Studio o similar suites!

    this first affirmation 
    Quote
    QB64 is not a simple reincarnation of QB45
    is clear because the goal of getting the QB45 IDE emulation and the possibility of running QBasic/QB code into windowed Oses is already got, apart the debugging emulation that is not possible until the code is compiled and not interpreted (in this QB64 resembles more TurboBasic).

    moreover about the second part of affirmation
    Quote
    are NOT -- say -- Visual Studio or similar
    I don't think that the evolution of modular programming is a RAD IDE, that implies an event programming style, also if it can have a RAD tool among the tool of that IDE. So I think that the evolution of QB64 is not to become a RAD tool, but it is fine to have a RAD tool in set of tools of QB64.

    Thanks for feedback
    Programming isn't difficult, only it's  consuming time and coffee

    Offline mdhughes

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #12 on: July 12, 2019, 06:43:36 am »
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  • Hi, guys. Saw some site traffic, and I appreciate the feedback, but I was very terse in my post.

    I was fairly positive about QB64; it has some flaws, but it does work and produce a standalone binary, that's a good accomplishment.

    The ugly IDE: This is partly about looks, more about usability. And, I'm a Mac and UNIX developer. I don't know what the Windows world is like, but I did use DOS, mostly inside OS/2 back in the '90s.

    A plain-text-only IDE is a little annoying these days, but not by itself a bad thing. But the color schemes are pretty garish, and the only replacement font isn't great. Multiple fonts and better font scaling, and a nicer UI for it (IDE Color has a nice panel, but Display is awful) would go a long ways. The thing I'd compare this with is Python's IDLE, which even though it's using the archaic Tk API, has nice system fonts, works like a native program; the color schemes are harder to change, but the defaults fit a modern OS better. Even Chipmunk BASIC has a native GUI window (which just shows a text prompt).

    The system Edit menu isn't wired up, so it doesn't copy-paste on Cmd-C/X/V; I can use the IDE's Edit menu, Ctrl-C/X/V, but both ought to work. Clicking anywhere in the screen places the cursor there, not at the end of that line, which is the normal behavior. It'd be nice to have the menus instead become real Mac menus on Mac, Linux menus on Linux, etc.

    The Mac (and many but not all Linux GUIs) normally use Emacs editing keys in all text areas. As an emulation of QB on DOS, maybe that's not the right thing, but it's extremely hard for a Mac nerd to type without them. Many desktop and laptop keyboards these days are "slim" and don't have Home/End, etc. except by some awkward Fn-key combo.

    The default "untitled" program location being in the qb64 folder instead of the programs folder is unfortunate. And it ought to prompt to save on quit, and the Save As dialog weirdly doesn't show existing files, only the folders.

    There's a lot of little stuff like that where it's not as pleasant as using IDLE or a good Scheme REPL in Terminal, let alone a focused editor like BBEdit or Atom. It could be run from the command line, but then you lose the IDE part.


    The slow compiles: On first creating an app, it takes about 10-15 seconds. On recompile it's ~5 seconds for a very short program. It seems to only happen in IDE, shell is OK:

    % time clang -o hello hello.c # just for comparison
    clang -o hello hello.c  0.38s user 0.17s system 86% cpu 0.633 total
    % time ./qb64 -c programs/hello.bas
    ./qb64 -c programs/hello.bas  1.74s user 0.23s system 95% cpu 2.076 total


    The lack of REPL: That's a real killer for me. Being able to just type a line and see the result, whether that's in the "edit" window or a separate pane, is just fundamentally better than waiting for a compile. There are languages where the REPL is fast, like Julia and Chez Scheme; and in Python it's no slower than anything else.


    I actually removed the EWD quote on BASIC shortly after posting because I'd used it in another post recently; he was making a number of joking points about computer science and the languages available. If you haven't read Dijkstra, I highly recommend doing so.


    Anyway, there you go. I'll try to check back, or you can email me.

    Offline freetrav

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #13 on: July 12, 2019, 08:27:20 am »
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  • Quote
    It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration
    Is it true? I strongly disagree.

    Not only do I disagree about 'mutilation', I emphatically contend that making such a statement - even if the BASIC-exposed student does have subsequent problems learning good programming habits - says more about the teacher than about the student, and still more about the language-bigotry of the person making the statement.

    Offline bplus

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    Re: Article "Fall of Visual Basic, Rise of QuickBasic?"
    « Reply #14 on: July 12, 2019, 10:06:55 am »
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  • Quote
    Quote
    It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration
    Is it true? I strongly disagree.
    Not only do I disagree about 'mutilation', I emphatically contend that making such a statement - even if the BASIC-exposed student does have subsequent problems learning good programming habits - says more about the teacher than about the student, and still more about the language-bigotry of the person making the statement.

    +1

    That quote has been trolling Basic fans for years!

    Get over it, everyone has moved on since that statement was originally made.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 10:09:28 am by bplus »