Author Topic: QB64 vs Python and a humble request  (Read 15443 times)

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Offline Pete

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2020, 04:38:26 pm »
@Bert: I love Fell, and not to take anything away from all of his wonderful program contributions, support, QB64 continued development, and his role in the Odin holy trinity, Fell did not create the QB64 IDE, Rob did.

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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2020, 04:38:35 pm »
Well I would think good branding follows the continuity principle. If you have the QB64 programming language, and package it with something we end up calling the Infinity++ IDE, and then call the tutorial the Looney Tunes Guide to Modern Programming, well, how does that help in creating a successful brand? 

You are absolutely correct. Brand continuity is a foundational axiom of marketing. To break that continuity is tantamount to product suicide.

That being said, there are some brands that have become tarnished with an unwarranted bad reputation, such as BASIC. Some brands kneecap themselves all on their own. Take for example The Sci Fi Channel. When they changed their name to Syfy back in 2009, they lost over a third of their sponsors and nearly all of their net recognition while also garnering some fantastic jokes about the name being slang for syphilis - something they STILL haven't yet recovered from.

The question begins with the original brand and it's demographic. I dare say that "QB64" is perfect for its demographic; hobbyists, nostalgists, and other niche programmers are naturally drawn to it. However, in the educational market, that name is unmarketable. Please understand, it's a common problem when writing for the K-12 industry. Usually the wining bids have some goofy looking mascot and the name of an animal in the title. It's embarrassing. If I see one more damn owl or ferret on the cover of a textbook I think I'll puke up my own liver. We in the industry refer to it as Rikki-Tikki-Takki. As it stands, the committee members I've already spoken to about the name "Kwik" just naturally assumed there would be a damn road runner on the cover! Ever wonder why O'Reilly books all have animals on them? Edie Freedman, an artist, teacher and mother of four, thought that Unix program names sounded like weird animals and fashioned the cover art after a popular children's textbook!
I understand the appeal. Children identify with cute animal mascots. But I think that speaks down to children. Kids are far more intuitive than we give them credit for - well, at least the clever little booger-miners I come in contact with are. I could put QB64 in front of them and they wouldn't blink. It's the damn teachers and administrators that have to be convinced.

I wouldn't change a single thing about QB64. Well...as a Mac user, I would prefer to be able to use CMD+C/V instead of CTRL+C/V to copy and paste, and it would be nice if the cursor always went to the end of a line or inside the text where I clicked it instead of just EXACTLY where I clicked on the screen, but those are minor issues. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with the name. I just need to figure out a name that the K-12 people will accept as a curriculum name. They wouldn't even know HOW to care what made it work (i.e., QB64). I also need to find or create a more polished and modern IDE with all kinds of helpful features very similar to Kite (kite.com) for Python.
I've considered Davs IDE, but as far as I know, it only works for Windows. I would need to compile it for Raspi and Mac at the very least. Otherwise, it sounds ideal!

:@)




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Offline Pete

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2020, 07:01:17 pm »
Gotcha. Something like... Drum roll (where's Dav when I need him)...

Code Wizard

Of course that could get knicked as Code Wiz, but still... Such a name ge's kids to think of it as system they can use to code their own programs. Sorry I'm no naming wizard, but at least with me, you don't get submissions like: Call it Amazing Steve Software. Of course that could get acronymed to... Ah, never mind.

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Offline EricE

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2020, 07:05:06 pm »
Quote
Children identify with cute animal mascots. But I think that speaks down to children.
I like cute animal mascots :)

A recommendation about using Dav's IDE.

If  the DavIDE option,
"Compile > Compiler Options > Save EXE at the BAS location"
is checked, then make sure the QB64 option,
"Run > Output EXE to Source Folder"
is unchecked, otherwise DavsIDE will not be able to run the EXE after compiling the source file.

How the BASIC languages are viewed is still being influenced by what Edsger Dijkstra wrote in 1975.

Quote
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

How do we tell truths that might hurt?
https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html

Offline EricE

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2020, 07:22:04 pm »
Quote
I also need to find or create a more polished and modern IDE with all kinds of helpful features very similar to Kite (kite.com) for Python.

How about considering Visual Studio Code as an IDE for QB64?

A QB64 extension for Visual Studio Code would provide a modern IDE for the language, and at the same time would bring QB64 to the attention of many programmers who would otherwise not consider using it.

https://code.visualstudio.com/

Offline Pete

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2020, 07:45:20 pm »
Ha! I just Googled Code Wizard, and guess what? Some company already snapped up my name for their classroom software. Wilson! Call my attorney! Wilson!!!!!!

Pete
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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2020, 07:45:37 pm »
How the BASIC languages are viewed is still being influenced by what Edsger Dijkstra wrote in 1975.
Yeah, I'm all too familiar with that arrogant Dutch idiot's gum-flapping rant. But the joke was on him and he didn't even know it. The very same year he posted that memo, Bill Gates sold the first version of Microsoft BASIC for the Altair and started a multi-billion dollar business that ushered in the personal computer revolution. BASIC was THE programming language for the next twenty years and now has become so ubiquitous, it's part of MS Word and Excel as an afterthought. But the sad epitaph is Microsoft made BASIC what it was, but also killed it with that .NOT aberration from Hell.

There's never been anything wrong with BASIC. BASIC was never designed to be a heavy hitter. It managed to evolve into one anyway though - in spite of Dijkstra. Dijkstra picking on BASIC was like a pro football player dropping by a junior high school and calling the junior varsity quarterback a worthless retard. Seriously?! Why didn't say something about Logo? But the final punchline is to this day, there are over 50 different versions of BASIC out in the wild. Show me any other language that has that kind of following.

:@)



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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2020, 07:46:31 pm »
Ha! I just Googled Code Wizard, and guess what? Some company already snapped up my name for their classroom software. Wilson! Call my attorney! Wilson!!!!!!

Pete
Yep, it's a heck of a challenge.
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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2020, 07:47:28 pm »
How about considering Visual Studio Code as an IDE for QB64?

A QB64 extension for Visual Studio Code would provide a modern IDE for the language, and at the same time would bring QB64 to the attention of many programmers who would otherwise not consider using it.

https://code.visualstudio.com/
From what I can tell, it works for Windows, Mac, and Linux, but not RasPi. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2020, 07:53:48 pm »
How about considering Visual Studio Code as an IDE for QB64?

A QB64 extension for Visual Studio Code would provide a modern IDE for the language, and at the same time would bring QB64 to the attention of many programmers who would otherwise not consider using it.

https://code.visualstudio.com/
I stand corrected. Someone has gone to the trouble of porting to the RasPi as well as Chromebook. http://code.headmelted.com/#platforms
I do like the idea of using Visual Studio Code. I just don't know how or if it can be configured for QB64 syntax, keywords, compiling, running, debugging(?!) and integrated help. Anyone know of any sources for these?
:@)
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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2020, 07:59:22 pm »
Here is something else to look at: https://www.qb64.org/forum/index.php?topic=809.msg100182#msg100182

RhoSigma did a Notepadd++ setup that lets you use that with QB64.  I have also done some work using the Geany IDE with QB64 as well.  So MANY options.
Sadly, Notepad++ does not work on Macs, and I suspect not on RasPi either. Geany does, and so that jumps the first hurdle. But the next hurdle is auto code completion and integrated help.
From this thread, I'm beginning to see that one of two options will have to be deployed; 1) Find a platform like Kite that can be fully adapted to QB64 for all the functions required, or 2) Write the IDE from scratch using QB64.
Honestly, the second option sounds more ideal. I'm just not a programmer. So, Grr. The first option would have to *BE* Kite since no other editors include all of the options of a full-blown IDE with integrated help options.
:@)
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Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2020, 10:04:42 pm »
I've never heard of RasPi BASIC II
RasPi BASIC II doesn't exist. It was name that came up in committee for a potential new language name based on QB64.
I remember Fuze. It was a nice project with their own dedicated hardware. In fact, it's somewhat similar to what I'm trying to achieve. But I believe they failed because they held onto the name BASIC and depended on Russell's WiringPi module which he unceremoniously canceled and left them holding the bag.
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Offline Pete

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2020, 11:37:54 pm »
Bummer, AlphaCode is another name in use. This reminds me of the early dotcom domain naming days where isthisfuckingnamestillavailable.com wasn't available.

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Offline bplus

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2020, 11:13:04 am »
As an entrance into coding, I was thinking Code Gate (like a Star Gate).

Offline CBTJD

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Re: QB64 vs Python and a humble request
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2020, 12:17:56 pm »
As an entrance into coding, I was thinking Code Gate (like a Star Gate).
Hmm...Interesting. I'll add it to my short list and see what they think.
Thanks!
:@)

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