        Navigating Into the Unknown: An Interview with Carlos Castaneda for
        the magazine Uno Mismo, Chile and Argentina, February, 1997
        by Daniel Trujillo Rivas *

        See the January/February '98 issue of Utne Reader for excerpts from
        this interview and from another interview with Carlos Castaneda
        entitled "The World of Waking Dreams," written by Michael Brennan.

Q: Mr. Castaneda, for years you've remained in absolute anonymity. What drove
        you to change this condition and talk publicly about the teachings
        that you and your three companions received from the nagual Juan
        Matus?
A: What compels us to disseminate don Juan Matus's ideas is a need to clarify
        what he taught us. For us, this is a task that can no longer be
        postponed. His other three students and I have reached the unanimous
        conclusion that the world to which Don Juan Matus introduced us is
        within the perceptual possibilities of all human beings.
        We've discussed among us what would be the appropriate road to take.
        To remain anonymous the way don Juan proposed to us? This option was
        not acceptable. The other road available was to disseminate don Juan's
        ideas: an infinitely more dangerous and exhausting choice, but the
        only one that, we believe, has the dignity don Juan imbued all his
        teachings with.

Q: Considering what you have said about the unpredictability of a warrior's
        actions, which we have corroborated for three decades, can we expect
        this public phase you're going through to last for a while?
        Until when?
A: There is no way for us to establish a temporal criteria. We live according
        to the premises proposed by don Juan and we never deviate from them.
        Don Juan Matus gave us the formidable example of a man who lived
        according to what he said. And I say it is a formidable example
        because it is the most difficult thing to emulate; to be monolithic
        and at the same time have the flexibility to face anything. This was
        the way don Juan lived his life. Within these premises, the only thing
        one can be is an impeccable mediator. One is not the player in this
        cosmic match of chess, one is simply a pawn on the chessboard. What
        decides everything is a conscious impersonal energy that sorcerers
        call intent or the Spirit.

Q: As far as I've been able to corroborate, orthodox anthropology, as well as
        the alleged defenders of the pre-Colombian cultural heritage of
        America, undermine the credibility of your work. The belief that your
        work is merely the product of your literary talent, which, by the way,
        is exceptional, continues to exist today. There are also other sectors
        that accuse you of having a double standard because, supposedly, your
        lifestyle and your activities contradict what the majority expect from
        a shaman. How can you clear up these suspicions?
A: The cognitive system of the Western man forces us to rely on preconceived
        ideas. We base our judgments on something that is always "a priori,"
        for example the idea of what is "orthodox." What is orthodox
        anthropology? The one taught at university lecture halls? What is a
        shaman's behavior? To wear feathers on one's head and dance to the
        spirits? For thirty years, people have accused Carlos Castaneda of
        creating a literary character simply because what I report to them
        does not concur with the anthropological "a priori," the ideas
        established in the lecture halls or in the anthropological field work.
        However, what don Juan presented to me can only apply to a situation
        that calls for total action and, under such circumstances, very little
        or almost nothing of the preconceived occurs. I have never been able
        to draw conclusions about shamanism because in order to do this one
        needs to be an active member in the shamans' world. For a social
        scientist, let's say for example a sociologist, it is very easy to
        arrive at sociological conclusions over any subject related to the
        Occidental world, because the sociologist is an active member of the
        Occidental world. But how can an anthropologist, who spends at the
        most two years studying other cultures, arrive at reliable conclusions
        about them? One needs a lifetime to be able to acquire membership in a
        cultural world. I've been working for more than thirty years in the
        cognitive world of the shamans of ancient Mexico and, sincerely, I
        don't believe I have acquired the membership that would allow me to
        draw conclusions or to even propose them. I have discussed this with
        people from different disciplines and they always seem to understand
        and agree with the premises I'm presenting. But then they turn around
        and they forget everything they agreed upon and continue to sustain
        "orthodox" academic principles, without caring about the possibility
        of an absurd error in their conclusions. Our cognitive system seems
        to be impenetrable.

Q: What's the aim of you not allowing yourself to be photographed, having your
        voice recorded or making your biographical data known? Could this
        affect what you've achieved in your spiritual work, and if so how?
        Don't you think it would be useful for some sincere seekers of truth
        to know who you really are, as a way of corroborating that it is
        really possible to follow the path you proclaim?
A: With reference to photographs and personal data, the other three disciples
        of don Juan and myself follow his instructions. For a shaman like don
        Juan, the main idea behind refraining from giving personal data is
        very simple. It is imperative to leave aside what he called "personal
        history". To get away from the "me" is something extremely annoying
        and difficult. What shamans like don Juan seek is a state of fluidity
        where the personal "me" does not count. He believed that an absence
        of photographs and biographical data affects whomever enters into this
        field of action in a positive, though subliminal way. We are endlessly
        accustomed to using photographs, recordings and biographical data, all
        of which spring from the idea of personal importance. Don Juan said it
        was better not to know anything about a shaman; in this way, instead
        of encountering a person, one encounters an idea that can be
        sustained; the opposite of what happens in the everyday world where we
        are faced only with people who have numerous psychological problems
        but no ideas, all of these people filled to the brim with "me, me,
        me."

Q: How should your followers interpret the publicity and the commercial
        infrastructure a side of your literary work surrounding the knowledge
        you and your companions disseminate? What's your real relationship
        with Cleargreen Incorporated and the other companies (Laugan
        Productions, Toltec Artists)? I'm talking about a commercial link.
A: At this point in my work I needed someone able to represent me regarding
        the dissemination of don Juan Matus's ideas. Cleargreen is a
        corporation that has great affinity with our work, as are Laugan
        Productions and Toltec Artists. The idea of disseminating don Juan's
        teachings in the modern world implies the use of commercial and
        artistic media that are not within my individual reach. As
        corporations having an affinity with don Juan's ideas, Cleargreen
        Incorporated, Laugan Productions and Toltec Artists are capable of
        providing the means to disseminate what I want to disseminate. There
        is always a tendency for impersonal corporations to dominate and
        transform everything that is presented to them and to adapt it to
        their own ideology. If it weren't for Cleargreen's, Laugan
        Productions' and Toltec Artists' sincere interest, everything don
        Juan said would have been transformed into something else by now.

Q: There are a great number of people who, in one way or another, "cling" to
        you in order to acquire public notoriety. What's your opinion on the
        actions of Victor Sanchez, who has interpreted and reorganized your
        teachings in order to elaborate a personal theory? And of Ken Eagle
        Feather's assertions that he has been chosen by don Juan to be his
        disciple, and that don Juan came back just for him?
A: Indeed there are a number of people who call themselves my students or don
        Juan's students, people I've never met and whom, I can guarantee, don
        Juan never met. Don Juan Matus was exclusively interested in the
        perpetuation of his lineage of shamans. He had four disciples who
        remain to this day. He had others who left with him. Don Juan was not
        interested in teaching his knowledge; he taught it to his disciples in
        order to continue his lineage. Due to the fact that they cannot
        continue don Juan's lineage, his four disciples have been forced to
        disseminate his ideas. The concept of a teacher who teaches his
        knowledge is part of our cognitive system but it isn't part of the
        cognitive system of the shamans of ancient Mexico. To teach was
        absurd for them. To transmit his knowledge to those who were going to
        perpetuate their lineage was a different matter. The fact that there
        are a number of individuals who insist in using my name or don Juan's
        name is simply an easy maneuver to benefit themselves without much
        effort.

Q: Let's consider the meaning of the word "spirituality" to be a state of
        consciousness in which human beings are fully capable of controlling
        the potentials of the species, something achieved by transcending the
        simple animal condition through a hard psychic, moral and intellectual
        training. Do you agree with this assertion? How is don Juan's world
        integrated into this context?
A: For don Juan Matus, a pragmatic and extremely sober shaman, "spirituality"
        was an empty ideality, an assertion without basis that we believe to
        be very beautiful because it is encrusted with literary concepts and
        poetic expressions, but which never goes beyond that. Shamans like
        don Juan are essentially practical. For them there only exists a
        predatory universe in which intelligence or awareness is the product
        of life and death challenges. He considered himself a navigator of
        infinity and said that in order to navigate into the unknown like a
        shaman does, one needs unlimited pragmatism, boundless sobriety and
        guts of steel. In view of all this, don Juan believed that
        "spirituality" is simply a description of something impossible to
        achieve within the patterns of the world of everyday life, and it is
        not a real way of acting.

Q: You have pointed out that your literary activity, as well as Taisha
        Abelar's and Florinda Donner-Grau's, is the result of don Juan's
        instructions. What is the objective of this?
A: The objective of writing those books was given by don Juan. He asserted
        that even if one is not a writer one still can write, but writing is
        transformed from a literary action into a shamanistic action. What
        decides the subject and the development of a book is not the mind of
        the writer but rather a force that the shamans consider the basis of
        the universe, and which they call intent. It is intent which decides
        a shaman's production, whether it be literary or of any other kind.
        According to don Juan, a practitioner of shamanism has the duty and
        the obligation of saturating himself with all the information
        available. The work of shamans is to inform themselves thoroughly
        about everything that could possibly be related to their topic of
        interest. The shamanistic act consists of abandoning all interest in
        directing the course the information takes. Don Juan used to say,
        "The one who arranges the ideas that spring from such a well of
        information is not the shaman, it is intent. The shaman is simply an
        impeccable conduit." For don Juan writing was a shamanistic challenge,
        not a literary task.

Q: If you allow me to assert the following, your literary work presents
        concepts that are closely related with Oriental philosophical
        teachings, but it contradicts what is commonly known about the
        Mexican indigenous culture. What are the similarities and the
        differences between one and the other?
A: I don't have the slightest idea. I'm not learned in either one of them. My
        work is a phenomenological report of the cognitive world to which don
        Juan Matus introduced me. From the point of view of phenomenology as
        a philosophical method, it is impossible to make assertions that are
        related to the phenomenon under scrutiny. Don Juan Matus' world is so
        vast, so mysterious and contradictory, that it isn't suitable for an
        exercise in linear exposition; the most one can do is describe it, and
        that alone is a supreme effort.

Q: Assuming that don Juan's teachings have become part of occult literature,
        what's your opinion about other teachings in this category, for
        example Masonic philosophy, Rosicrucianism, Hermeticism and
        disciplines such as the Cabala, the Tarot and Astrology when we
        compare them to nagualism? Have you ever had any contact with or
        maintain any contact with any of these or with their devotees?
A: Once again, I don't have the slightest idea of what the premises are, or
        the points of view and subjects of such disciplines. Don Juan
        presented us with the problem of navigating into the unknown, and this
        takes all of our available effort.

Q: Do some of the concepts of your work, such as the assemblage point, the
        energetic filaments that make up the universe, the world of the
        inorganic beings, intent, stalking and dreaming, have an equivalent
        in Western knowledge? For example, there are some people who consider
        that man seen as a luminous egg is an expression of the aura.
A: As far as I know, nothing of what don Juan taught us seems to have a
        counterpart in Western knowledge. Once, when don Juan was still here,
        I spent a whole year in search of gurus, teachers and wise men to give
        me an inkling of what they were doing. I wanted to know if there was
        something in the world of that time similar to what don Juan said and
        did. My resources were very limited and they only took me to meet the
        established masters who had millions of followers and, unfortunately,
        I couldn't find any similarity.

Q: Concentrating specifically on your literary work, your readers find
        different Carlos Castanedas. We first find a somewhat incompetent
        Western scholar, permanently baffled at the power of old Indians like
        don Juan and don Genaro (mainly in The Teachings Of Don Juan, A
        Separate Reality, A Journey To Ixtlan, Tales Of Power, and The Second
        Ring Of Power.) Later we find an apprentice versed in shamanism (in
        The Eagle's Gift, The Fire from Within, The Power of Silence and,
        particularly, The Art Of Dreaming.) If you agree with this assessment,
        when and how did you cease to be one to become the other?
A: I don't consider myself a shaman, or a teacher, or an advanced student of
        shamanism; nor do I consider myself an anthropologist or a social
        scientist of the Western world. My presentations have all been
        descriptions of a phenomenon which is impossible to discern under the
        conditions of the linear knowledge of the Western world. I could never
        explain what don Juan was teaching me in terms of cause and effect.
        There was no way to foretell what he was going to say or what was
        going to happen. Under such circumstances, the passage from one state
        to another is subjective and not something elaborated, or
        premeditated, or a product of wisdom.

Q: One can find episodes in your literary work that are truly incredible for
        the Western mind. How could someone who's not an initiate verify that
        all those "separate realities" are real, as you claim?
A: It can be verified very easily by lending one's whole body instead of only
        one's intellect. One cannot enter don Juan's world intellectually,
        like a dilettante seeking fast and fleeting knowledge. Nor, in don
        Juan's world, can anything be verified absolutely. The only thing we
        can do is arrive at a state of increased awareness that allows us to
        perceive the world around us in a more inclusive manner. In other
        words, the goal of don Juan's shamanism is to break the parameters of
        historical and daily perception and to perceive the unknown. That's
        why he called himself a navigator of infinity. He asserted that
        infinity lies beyond the parameters of daily perception. To break
        these parameters was the aim of his life. Because he was an
        extraordinary shaman, he instilled that same desire in all four of us.
        He forced us to transcend the intellect and to embody the concept of
        breaking the boundaries of historical perception.

Q: You assert that the basic characteristic of human beings is to be
        "perceivers of energy." You refer to the movement of the assemblage
        point as something imperative to perceiving energy directly. How can
        this be useful to a man of the 21st century? According to the concept
        previously defined, how can the attainment of this goal help one's
        spiritual improvement?
A: Shamans like don Juan assert that all human beings have the capacity to
        see energy directly as it flows in the universe. They believe that the
        assemblage point, as they call it, is a point that exists in man's
        total sphere of energy. In other words, when a shaman perceives a man
        as energy that flows in the universe, he sees a luminous ball. In that
        luminous ball, the shaman can see a point of greater brilliance
        located at the height of the shoulder blades, approximately an arm's
        length behind them. Shamans maintain that perception is assembled at
        this point; that the energy that flows in the universe is transformed
        here into sensory data, and that the sensory data is later
        interpreted, giving as a result the world of everyday life. Shamans
        assert that we are taught to interpret, and therefore we are taught
        to perceive. The pragmatic value of perceiving energy directly as it
        flows in the universe for a man of the 21st century or a man of the
        1st century is the same. It allows him to enlarge the limits of his
        perception and to use this enhancement within his realm. Don Juan said
        that to see directly the wonder of the order and the chaos of the
        universe would be extraordinary.

Q: You have recently presented a physical discipline called Tensegrity. Can
        you explain what is it exactly? What is its goal? What spiritual
        benefit can a person who practices it individually get?
A: According to what don Juan Matus taught us, the shamans who lived in
        ancient Mexico discovered a series of movements that when executed by
        the body brought about such physical and mental prowess that they
        decided to call those movements magical passes. Don Juan told us that,
        through their magical passes, those shamans attained an increased
        level of consciousness which allowed them to perform indescribable
        feats of perception. Through generations, the magical passes were only
        taught to practitioners of shamanism. The movements were surrounded
        with tremendous secrecy and complex rituals. That is the way don Juan
        learned them and that is the way he taught them to his four disciples.
        Our effort has been to extend the teachings of such magical passes to
        anyone who wants to learn them. We have called them Tensegrity, and
        we have transformed them from specific movements pertinent only to
        each of don Juan's four disciples, to general movements suitable to
        anyone. Practicing Tensegrity, individually or in groups, promotes
        health, vitality, youth and a general sense of well-being. Don Juan
        said that practicing the magical passes helps accumulate the energy
        necessary to increase awareness and to expand the parameters of
        perception.

Q: Besides your three cohorts, the people who attend your seminars have met
        other people, like the Chacmools, the Energy Trackers, the Elements,
        the Blue Scout . . . Who are they? Are they part of a new generation
        of seers guided by you? If this is the case, how could one become part
        of this group of apprentices?
A: Every one of these persons are defined beings who don Juan Matus, as
        director of his lineage, asked us to wait for. He predicted the
        arrival of each one of them as an integral part of a vision. Since don
        Juan's lineage could not continue, due to the energetic configuration
        of his four students, their mission was transformed from perpetuating
        the lineage into closing it, if possible, with a golden clasp. We are
        in no position to change such instructions. We can neither look for
        nor accept apprentices or active members of don Juan's vision. The
        only thing we can do is acquiesce to the designs of intent. The fact
        that the magical passes, guarded with such jealousy for so many
        generations, are now being taught, is proof that one can, indeed, in
        an indirect way, become part of this new vision through the practice
        of Tensegrity and by following the premises of the warriors' way.

Q: In Readers of Infinity, you've utilized the term "navigating" to define
        what sorcerers do. Are you going to hoist the sail to begin the
        definitive journey soon? Will the lineage of Toltec warriors, the
        keepers of this knowledge, end with you?
A: Yes, that is correct, don Juan's lineage ends with us.

Q: Here's a question that I've often asked myself: Does the warriors' path
        include, like other disciplines do, spiritual work for couples?
A: The warriors' path includes everything and everyone. There can be a whole
        family of impeccable warriors. The difficulty lies in the terrible
        fact that individual relationships are based in emotional investments,
        and the moment the practitioner really practices what she or he
        learns, the relationship crumbles. In the everyday world, emotional
        investments are not normally examined, and we live an entire lifetime
        waiting to be reciprocated. Don Juan said I was a diehard investor
        and that my way of living and feeling could be described simply: "I
        only give what others give me."

Q: What aspirations of possible advancement should someone have who wishes to
        work spiritually according to the knowledge disseminated in your
        books? What would you recommend for those who wish to practice don
        Juan's teachings by themselves?
A: There's no way to put a limit on what one may accomplish individually if
        the intent is an impeccable intent. Don Juan's teachings are not
        spiritual. I repeat this because the question has come to the surface
        over and over. The idea of spirituality doesn't fit with the iron
        discipline of a warrior. The most important thing for a shaman like
        don Juan is the idea of pragmatism. When I met him, I believed I was
        a practical man, a social scientist filled with objectivity and
        pragmatism. He destroyed my pretensions and made me see that, as a
        true Western man, I was neither pragmatic nor spiritual. I came to
        understand that I only repeated the word "spirituality" to contrast
        it with the mercenary aspect of the world of everyday life. I wanted
        to get away from the mercantilism of everyday life and the eagerness
        to do this is what I called spirituality. I realized don Juan was
        right when he demanded that I come to a conclusion; to define what I
        considered spirituality. I didn't know what I was talking about. What
        I'm saying might sound presumptuous, but there's no other way to say
        it. What a shaman like don Juan wants is to increase awareness, that
        is, to be able to perceive with all the human possibilities of
        perception; this implies a colossal task and an unbending purpose,
        which can not be replaced by the spirituality of the Western world.

Q: Is there anything you would like to explain to the South American people,
        especially to the Chileans? Would you like to make any other statement
        besides your answers to our questions?
A: I don't have anything to add. All human beings are at the same level. At
        the beginning of my apprenticeship with don Juan Matus, he tried to
        make me see how common man's situation is. I, as a South American,
        was very involved, intellectually, with the idea of social reform.
        One day I asked don Juan what I thought was a deadly question: How
        can you remain unmoved by the horrendous situation of your fellow men,
        the Yaqui Indians of Sonora? I knew that a certain percentage of the
        Yaqui population suffered from tuberculosis and that, due to their
        economic situation, they couldn't be cured. "Yes," don Juan said,
        "It's a very sad thing but, you see, your situation is also very sad,
        and if you believe that you are in better condition than the Yaqui
        Indians you are mistaken. In general the human condition is in a
        horrifying state of chaos. No one is better off than another. We are
        all beings that are going to die and, unless we acknowledge this,
        there is no remedy for us." This is another point of the shaman's
        pragmatism: to become aware that we are beings that are going to die.
        They say that when we do this, everything acquires a transcendental
        order and measure.

* Translated from Spanish. Reprinted here with permission from Uno Mismo.
Copyright 1997 Laugan Productions.

Email: cleargreen@cleargreen.com
Original Information (c) Copyright 1997-1999 Laugan Productions, Incorporated.
All rights reserved.

